Take Clothes Off As Directed by Helenish

[millefiori.livejournal.com]

Take Clothes Off As Directed by helenish is NC-17, BDSM themed, and an unauthorized homage set in the alternate universe created by xanthelj in General & Dr. Sheppard and Coming Home.

I read Helen's story both as a sly, clever reflection of male/female relations in Western society, and a look at the potential pitfalls of a society with an institutionalized BDSM lifestyle. And it's an interesting contrast to Xanthe's stories and style.

First off, I have to say I feel kind of cheeky posting about this, because I've only read parts of General and Dr. Sheppard, and I haven't yet decided whether or not to read Coming Home. I have some strong feelings about BDSM, and (of course) that colors how I read stories with that subject matter. I think BDSM in the bedroom is a kink, and I take a live and let live attitude toward kink. BDSM (and Domestic Discipline) as a lifestyle is something else, and it's something which for personal reasons makes me uncomfortable.

Having said all that, I think I read enough of General & Dr. Sheppard to get something of a feel for the writing, and I think it's an interesting contrast. Xanthe's writing feels lush and emotional, sweeping the reader along like a fictional Tchaikovsky. Helen's writing is more spare, quirky and at times almost uncomfortable, more like, say, Erik Satie. And I think these different styles suit the different stories very well. I can see these two styles/stories existing in the same universe, the lush, operatic story told of people who are happy and suited to their lives in this society, and the quirky, sadder story of people who don't quite fit and aren't quite as happy.

I found Helen's story to be very sad, the only hopeful part being that John had finally found in Rodney a partner who loved him and would treat him the way he wants/deserves to be treated. I'm not sure if it was Helen's intent, but I read this as John not really being a sub per se (nor Rodney being much of a top), but both of them forced into the roles by the rigid hierarchy of their society, and going along the best they could. I read it as John being the sort of person who wants to play BDSM games in the bedroom, not live it as a lifestyle, and the only reason he wasn't crushed by this society is because he's a stubborn, contrary bastard.

I was almost nauseated by the way Elizabeth so obviously and earnestly felt she was doing the best, right thing for John with her inappropriate 'discipline', when in actuality she was more of a hindrance, just one more thing to be ignored/overcome in John's attempts to be himself and to do his job. Because being routinely beaten, undermined and humiliated is just the downside of being a sub who's trying to do his chosen job. (And, of course, he wouldn't have these problems if he hadn't got above himself and stayed in his proper place.) It felt very realistic, and therefore very unsettling, to see just how easy it was to strip John of his dignity and humanity, and turn him into a second-class citizen, essentially a slave. And perhaps it's all the more unsettling because there are still people in the world who are slaves, and who are routinely treated in degrading, disrespectful ways, and they too have no choice but to suck it up and endure.

Although it's a bit of a slap in the face to overlay this dynamic on our society and see the sub=women angle, I think (I hope) things are not quite that bad for women anymore. At least not in first world Western societies. It's also good to remind myself that fantasy universes aside, most of the people living rigid BDSM lifestyles are doing so because they want to, not because they have no choice. Nevertheless, I think this story is going to stay with me for a long time.

Comments

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

mm. To me, this story isn't set in the same world as Xanthe's stories, though it's clear that it is inspired by them; it's argumentation through fiction in one of its cleanest forms, primarily as helenish credits Xanthe's work. To me, both authors spin the characterizations of John and Rodney to extremes: one extreme Romanticism, the other extreme Common Man.

What I enjoyed about Helen's story was that it was a rip-off of our world, with the civil rights issues about being a woman in America at the end of the last century and then mapping that onto the world of Doms and Subs. It's clear that the John Sheppard character undergoes the Tailhook harassment, and issues with when women first went to West Point--including the hair issue--are brought up again and again. To me, it's impossible to read this as anything other than straight SF, rather than Atlantis fan fiction, as it's not tied into the Atlantis Universe or the characters in any way. It's just as removed to me from Xanthe's original stories, as those were big-R romance, a BDSM utopia, and the plight of the everyday man isn't a part of that. What's cool to me is that I got such good stories out of it, Xanthe's to sooth my soul and Helen's to make me think, but they are not similar to me outside of the vague power-structure setting.

[millefiori.livejournal.com]

Ahh, there's where my unfamiliarity with Xanthe's stories tripped me up. I think I assumed that Helen's universe was more (technically) like Xanthe's than it actually was.

Although, could it be argued that they're similar in the way that a romance novel set in the Civil War era American South is similar to one slave's story set in the same place/time?

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly. The setting is the only thing that makes them similar, giving them common names for ideas, social structures, and the like. But a Romance novel isn't an anti-slavery novel, just as a Wagnerian opera isn't Ibsen's "The Doll House".

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

LOL...I just commented above before reading yours, but you're making the mapping so much clearer and more succint...

I like the idea of looking at it as different generic treatments, differnt tones, so to speak...

Though as Im' reading Coming Home for the first time, now, I'm not sure the universes are utterly and completely dissimilar; in other words, you're saying they're not set in the same world, but could we possibly argue that they *reference* the same world with their generically influenced differnent modes and tropes and tone?

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

Oh, god, I'm back at plato's cave and the reflections on the wall as interpreted by different authors. Yes, in a sense, there is a generic "dom/sub" universe that both stories take their information from, just as Anne Rice and, wow, Gor stories, used that same world in their creation. As milliefiori brought up, it's like using the Civil War era American South--there is an uber setting that authors use in many different ways.

no plato...but

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

LOL...hey, remember what department i'm teaching in at the moment ;-)

yes, i think we're not really differing a whole lot...i agree that helen's ultimately is more social commentary sf than bdssm fanfic; at the same time as she *is* using the bdsm fanfic conventions all the same...which, i think, makes it so good...more intertextuality and levels and layers of meaning...

Re: no plato...but

[september1967.livejournal.com]

Forgive me for butting in but what I have noticed is a trend in the comments for some to say how much they didn't like Xanthe's stories. I don't find that very feminist at all. Since I enjoyed Xanthe's stories because she was taking the usual BDSM story and making it into a romance, I resent when someone compares it to Gor novels. Someone else tried to say that before and its so far removed from the story.

Re: no plato...but

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

People are going to have a lot of different responses, emotional and intellectual, to these stories, and they're going to discuss them here, and that's okay, that's good. An emotional response to someone's expressed thoughts isn't so much what we do here, though. I promise that nothing shared here is meant to make you feel dissed in any way. Disagreeing with the commenter and saying that you don't feel the comparison is a good one is fine, but please leave resentment at the door, as it can make discussion less open and comfortable.

[millefiori.livejournal.com]

I spent part of the evening reading (most of) Coming Home, and I now that I have, I think I'd say that Helen's universe is an AU of Xanthe's--similar, but one in which the BDSM roles are more institutionalized and more rigid (as an example, in Xanthe's verse, there's not an immediate visible way to know if someone is a sub or a top). I think that the similarities between Helen's verse and Xanthe's verse are pretty strong, though--at least as close, if not closer, as Xanthe's is to canon.

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

I'll go with it being an AU of Xanthe's, but she changed one of the key components of that universe: that people were happy and confident in the system. There is a strong sense of connection between the characters, and that these customs unite them in a positive fashion.

Meanwhile, Helen's whole story is predicated on that *not* being true; her John Sheppard is bucking the system, unhappy, insecure, and alone. The connections made are fumbling near-misses. Neither John nor Rodney is confident in their roles. And while it's great that they work something out in this story, their connection feels tentative and liable to collapse under the ponderous social weight upon it.

Which is why I don't think the two stories particularly co-exist in the same universe all that well. I think that change is so significant that it makes them two distinctly different worlds.

[millefiori.livejournal.com]

Yes, having read some of Coming Home (funny how that helps), I agree that it has to be an AU. The differences to the culture itself are such that it can't just be different style/pov/experiences happening in the same world.

Xanthe's world is a happier place, and my issues aside, it feels that way because of the connections between and happiness of the characters. Helen's world feels very grim and scary, and John's cautiously hopeful ending is precarious indeed.

[mamoru22.livejournal.com]

I think this is a fascinating point. For me, Xanthe's story is mostly a fantasy world. Everybody seems to be happy about these fairly rigid social structure they live in. Everybody seems to be happy about this separation between dom and sub, everybody seems to have a place being either one or the other. (Even though we do get a hint that some are not quite as happy when we see that Zelenka actually has his battle about being different; though frowned upon he is free to live as he pleases but an outsider nonetheless.)

Helen's story on the other hand is how a society like this would work in reality. Where people very often have problems defining themselves as only one or the other. Where rigid social structures lead to many people wanting to break out of it rather than decide to regulate themselves that way. Where you can't have (or at least I don't think we ever could achieve) a society that is that structured and yet allows for everyone to live their live as they please.

Because the more freedom you have to live your life the more diverse its going to get...and Xanthe presents us with a world that is free but not really diverse.

Either I can look at these two stories and see different eras within the same universe (like maybe the difference between a seemingly perfect 1950's era and the more diverse and seemingly unhappy 60's) or one as a created utopia and the other as the mirror image set in reality.

So yeah, both stories have their merit bringing us the look at reality and fantasy and its fascinating to see each of them play out.

Also, as a big old romance fan, as much as I loved the romance part of Coming Home, Helen's idea of looking at this relationship as something where they both have to make compromises to live together totally got to me. Maybe because this tentative connection they do make rings more true to me. They get together not because they were made to fit together but because they care enough to work very hard on making things fit when they normally wouldn't.

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

But we see a few people happy and confident; and we see a few people unhappy with the system in Helen's. I really don't think we need the "different time periods" to connect the two stories' universes...I mean. there are plenty of domestic novels about the beauties of being a young mom...and then there's Sylvia Plath or tons of later feminist writing...the two co-exist...at times even in the same person.

I'm really reading the two Johns and Rodneys as different responses to the same system. John's parents seem to enjoy their relationship as do most other people around him.

Again, I think our initial reading of different tone/mode may be closer than trying to say they're completely differnt universes or at different times...

[fiamaya.livejournal.com]

I've only read the second of Xanthe's stories, but I think they can been seen as being in just about the same universe, but at different times (and in different genres). To use the metaphor of gender instead of BDSM roles backwards, Xanthe's is set in the world we (would like to thing we) live in today, when men and women (tops and subs) can take on any job, and do whatever they'd like to. Helen took that and (to my eyes) said "Hmmm, wonder what that world would have been like a couple of decades ago?" I think a lot of the differences between the two universes are very similar to the differences time has made to the expectations and experiences of women in traditionally male roles.

I also think that this John really is a sub, in Helen's world, but one comparable to a (straight) woman in a 50's style traditional environment who doesn't want to wear dresses and act helpless -- but still wants to have sex with a man (top). He's enough a product of his environment and experiences that he doesn't expect anyone to really want him if he can't dress and act the part, and he honestly sometimes wishes he could. Rodney, on the other hand, is a top who has totally rejected the whole BDSM-world equivalent of being "macho"; it's not clear whether that has more to do with him, or with the fact that the sciences are a much less traditional environment that the military. To say that they're not "really" sub and top is to sell short the story, in my view; it's like saying a tomboy isn't really a woman. I suppose what I'm saying is that Helen isn't trying to indict the BDSM underpinning of this shared world, but rather use it to indict the cultural expectations that come along for the ride.

(Hope that makes sense; I'm up far too late...)

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

Makes a lot of sense to me. :) As I said above, I see these two unis as being more similar than some do, in part for the same reasons you mention. I also like your look at John in Helen's story; I thought a lot about him (and Rodney, but mostly John since John seems to be more screwed-up *g*) after reading, and I've been working on sorting out what's up with him. I agree with you that he's a sub, and I agree with Rodney that he's been messed up by a succession of assholes and also by the expectations of this society. Neither of them fit comfortably into the roles created for them, which makes me glad they found each other--and also makes me wonder what this uni's version of the Kinsey scale would be like. Hmmm.

[millefiori.livejournal.com]

Different time periods works for me as an explanation of the differences. It's just that there are enough differences in the overall societal structure that I have a hard time seeing the stories as set in the exact same place and time.

As for the not 'really' a sub, that gets back to what I said in the original post about the difference between BDSM in the bedroom and BDSM as a lifestyle. I think John and Rodney are sub and top in terms of their private, sexual relationship, but the way I read it, neither of them wants to take that dynamic into their everyday lives. Hmmm. On second thought, I think John might want to take it into his everyday life with Rodney, but not into his job or his dealings with colleagues and strangers. (That's what I meant by 'not really' in terms of how they fit into the societal hierarchy.)

To compare that to a straight woman, I think it's more that she wants to have sex with a man, but also be able to go out into the world and be herself and do her chosen job without her sex mattering.

[jadelennox]

It's interesting -- before this post in the cutting board, I was going to make a post on this topic in my own journal.

I see these as two fundamentally different worlds. Xanthe created a fantasy world, which, for the purposes of the fantasy, presupposed that openness about sex and near-blindness to gender would remove many of the interpersonal problems that are present in our world. Helen's story does something very different -- it uses Xanthe's story as a jumping off point for a story which questions our society's gender roles, gender politics, and general tendency to sexually-related bigotry. In Helen's story, openness about sex and blindness to gender just shifts human bigotry to another topic. I think it's very possible to read Helen's story as an exposé of gender politics in our world, as science -fiction stories so often provide such exposés by changing subtle details about reality. But I don't read the story that way. I read it more as an exposé of human bigotry in general.

Moreover, I see it as another look into our conception of gender itself. She has a society in which people are either tops or bottoms (I don't recall if she brings in the switches that exist in Xanthe's story). And yet two characters, John and Rodney, clearly have personalities that don't fit so neatly into that binary. Even the existence of the "switch" role assumes that people still at any given point in time fallen to one line of the binary or the other. To me, this clearly exposes a dysfunctionality with any assigned binary labeling -- including the assigned binary labeling which, in Xanthe's story, isn't presented as nearly as dysfunctional as our society's entanglement of gender with sex.

So here I'm about to make an incredibly dysfunctional binary labeling: Xanthe's story can be seen as more a pure fantasy, where Helen's takes on more of the role of speculative fiction, using a fantastic premise to shed light on society.

Does that make any sense?

[september1967.livejournal.com]

That makes sense. Xanthe's stories was never meant to be a launching point for Helen's social commentary though and I wish she hadn't even brought up Xanthe's stories at all. It certainly wouldn't have left a neat little opportunity for others to express their dislike of her stories.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

That makes sense. Xanthe's stories was never meant to be a launching point for Helen's social commentary though

Well, at the risk of being argumentative: "Stargate: Atlantis" was never meant to be a launching point for Xanthe's romantic gay BDSM porn, but she wrote it anyway, and she had every right to do so. We can't choose where our inspiration comes from, and what the original author meant usually doesn't come into it at all.

Chiming in late...

[zyna-kat.livejournal.com]

Thank you, you made me laugh out loud after a very stressful day. I find it fascinating how different fandoms react to the idea of one piece of fanfic inspiring another. (Oddly, some of my favorite fanfic from The Professionals is inspired by other fanfiction. Shite, some of my favorite stories *ever*. Makes me want to re-read all of Helen Raven's stuff.)

Debate by fiction

[taverymate.livejournal.com]

Debate by fiction has a long, long tradition in fan fiction - going back to very early days of Star Trek for media fandom (early 70s) and even earlier for SF fanzine fiction (back to the 40s if not earlier). You seem to be conflating the idea of public criticism with being "not feminist" (which you reference in several of your previous comments) and that is so far from my understanding of feminism and its role in critical thinking that I cannot begin to fathom how to address your comments.

Re: Debate by fiction

[september1967.livejournal.com]

I guess it depends on where you draw the line at when and where criticism is appreciated, expected and wanted.

[kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com]

The world is not going to end if people express their dislike of someone's story. Really, it's okay if people don't like the same things. It's even okay if they say so out loud.

[september1967.livejournal.com]

Yes, its always ok as long as its not about you or your friends.

[dkwilliams.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, that makes perfect sense. I like that view of these stories - and the interesting discussions arising from it. To me, that's what makes good stories, that people find things to discuss about them other than "OMG! their luv is so tru!" Reading this discussion over here restores my faith in human intelligence.