Admin: Things we learn heading West

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

Thank you, Moonmoth, for that great opening post, and thank you to everyone who is participating (keep participating!) in the discussion of Hindsight. It's been a fascinating first discussion with a lot of interesting and opposing views being discussed civilly and intelligently. Only a few bumps in the road, so far, which I'll go over again, here.

* Discussion in this comm is to stay focused on the stories, not the authors, posters or commenters. People's motives in saying and doing what they say and do are not open to speculation or comment; debate the ideas presented and not what you assume are the thoughts behind them. Authors, in particular, are not open for dissection on the board. You may have insight into their thought processes, but this isn't the place to share it because authors are not invited to refute or add to anything said about them, here. Focus on the story itself, as presented, and your reactions to it, when answering the post and other commenters' points.

* The purpose of the comm is to discuss, debate and even argue points about stories we've read. If we were all to agree to disagree and go home to sit quietly with our own thoughts, there would be no comm. That's no fun. *g* We won't come to any conclusions here, will not agree to disagree or accept that everything ever written is perfectly valid and right and has its own place in the universe and its own following. Of course it is, and does, but that's not what we're interested in, here. We're about stating opinions and supporting them, arguing positions, and sharing our thoughts. No generalizations about what we should all bear in mind or accept about stories, please. The fact that we don't accept everything about stories is why we're here.

* All posts to this comm must be self-contained; no linking to previous posts made outside this comm, please. Conversation begun here must stay here. Previously written essays and reviews are very welcome, here, but must be reproduced within the post for response within the comm.

As I said, you guys have done very well, and I'm really pleased with the response to Moonmoth's post. If I swoop in with my Admin icon and correct anyone in the course of discussion, it's only in service to maintaining open, civil discussion in the way I think is best; I'm not out to poop on anyone's head. There will be errors made early on, obviously, as everyone gets used to the rules, and in future as new people join, that's expected, but I will police pretty thoroughly to make sure that rules are followed and things stay orderly. Thanks for understanding.

And, excuse the caps, but this is very important and I don't want it missed: READ THE GUIDELINES THOROUGHLY when you join, all of them. There's info there that's vital to your not getting corrected or even removed from the comm. I really do intend to be fairly strict, so please read them. Also, I'll add people as soon as I've noticed they've joined, but feel free to email me and let me know if you've been waiting. I'm currently working nights and sleeping days, so it may take me a few hours to get to you, or to make an admin correction in a post or comment, if needed. I promise not to sleep any more than absolutely necessary. *g*

Thanks, everyone, and have fun!

Comments

[sinden.livejournal.com]

Hey, just a thought. A lot of things do get brought up about people's stories and the motivation behind certain events, actions etc in the discussion of our liking/not liking them. Could there be a point in time [say after a week of discussion or something] that the author could post a seperate post addressing some of those things? ie clarifying their thought behind what happened in this section or what they were attempting to achieve with the story.

I don't know about anyone else, but that would be something that I would be interested in seeing because sometimes what was attempted and what was achieved can be two totally different things and it's kind of fun to nut out what happened along the way to get there. Plus, it gives a different perspective on the stories themselves that can make you see something you may not have seen before?

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

That is a good thought, and one I've discussed in various permutations, before. I like the idea of additional info being available for the readers; it's interesting to know what the author was thinking and shooting for when writing. There's a couple of things that concern me, though: I'm worried about the perception that the author is being given a chance to rebut or defend, when that's not the case. There are no attacks being made on the story or the author, here, just opinions being expressed by readers. And I'd hate to see authors chomping at the bit for a week, waiting for their chance to get back at people for voicing their opinions or to shoot down their perceptions of the story. (I know not all would want to do that, but some would.) And I'd like to leave discussion open-ended, so that if anyone comes in later and would like to contribute, no part of the discussion will have been trumped by revelation of authorial intent. It really is all about how the story worked for readers, not what the author meant to do, though that's always interesting to know.

Hmmm. Maybe writers who are interested could post in their own journals about their thoughts and intentions while writing the story, in response to anything they see here that they would like to clarify. Auxilliary posts are popping up here and there on lj with people's takes on what's been discussed in the comm, and maybe authors could do that, too. I'm still concerned about the impact of including the author in the discussion on willingness to speak freely, even after the fact. I will think about it, though.

[isiscolo.livejournal.com]

Just FYI, here is our policy at hp_fictalk:

Authors of fics being discussed are requested to wait 24 hours before participating in the thread, unless a question is specifically directed at the author. Authors are encouraged (but not required) to make their comments in a separate post, rather than in the discussion thread. Authors are held to the same standards as everyone else; those who react personally to criticism which meets group guidelines will have their comments moderated or deleted.

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

That's an interesting template--thanks. :)

[sivib.livejournal.com]

A humble suggestion: might it be a good idea to ask the author before subjecting their literary efforts to criticism? Feedback is one thing, but this group is attempting something much more intense than that. This is the equivilant of a writer's workshop in which anything is fair game. Quite a different animal.

I know you don't want writers asking for feedback, but perhaps an open invitation to writers to say "Any of my stuff is available for litcrit here. Go to it." Or conversely, "Please do not discuss my stuff without asking first, or at all." That way, no one gets blindsided.

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

That has been suggested before, and, no, that's not going to happen, here. I feel that anything that's been posted with a desire to receive feedback is open to discussion. And these discussions are happening, everywhere, sometimes in public posts, sometimes privately, but it does happen, and, whether it happens here or not, people don't ask first before they discuss. As readers, we have a right to talk about anything we want to talk about that's been publicly posted; I firmly believe that. I, personally, won't post about any story where the author has said "I only want positive feedback and no discussion of my story, please," but I'm not going to ban discussion of any publicly posted story from this comm, so if anyone else wants to post, they're absolutely free to. I may not ever read that author again, though, and I've seen many others express the same feeling. To ask for feedback but to try to forbid discussion of a story anywhere, at any time, is...a number of things I'm not going to give name to here, but not good, in my opinion. Readers have a right to discuss with each other, IMO. Period.

[sivib.livejournal.com]

I see your point, and it is of course your board, but I know how I'd feel if one of my stories was presented for criticism here. I'd feel somewhat overwhelmed and steamrollered. My level of skill and self-esteem is such that this level of scrutiny, with no warning, would be scary. There are some darn good writers posting here; my efforts are, at best, journeyman-level.

With warning, I could probably take it. Out of the blue, though, it would seem like a bunch of unsolicited beta-readers setting themselves loose on me. Even solicited, the beta process can be traumatic, but when it is sprung unawares it can be painful.

I speak from some experience, here. I wrote a little SG-1 story and told a friend that I had written it. Not asking for beta or anything, but just sharing the fact of the story. She proceeded to pick it apart for me, in a very constructive manner mind you, but it kinda hurt and surprised me. It might have hurt less, if she had not been such a more accomplished writer than me (she's a published author many times over), but as it was it felt like da Vinci's apprentice being beat over the head with the Mona Lisa. Does this make sense?

On the other hand, if I had asked her to beta, I could have girded my literary loins so to speak and taken my licks. I think. I hope.

This is rambling and I'm not sure I'm making my point at all. I'm not advocating censorship. I guess I'm advocating the right of refusal. It just seems more polite, given the vast variance in people's tolerance for public criticism.

[amalthia]

My main concern about not asking authors their permission to pick apart their stories is the risk of hurt feelings. Good authors have run for the hills for less offense.

Most people are writing for fun and don't expect to see their story disected in a LJ community without their prior knowlege or permission. Some might love it regardless of the circumstance, but I think it's a good idea to ask first.

It does not take long to write an email and ask the author if they are okay with opening a discussion on their story in this community.

No one likes to be blindsided like this and after reading the discussion on Hindsight I didn't see anything remotely useful come out of that discussion for the author or the readers.

I know it's a discussion but basically people picked apart the characterizations of her characters in the story and really it came down to how you want to see the characters.

As a writer you can't please everyone. The disccusion said nothing that could help writers improve their own skills and it came down to two things, either you liked the characters or you didn't.

Maybe I'm missing the point of what a literary criticism is supposed to be about, but I feel strongly that if the authors aren't allowed to respond to the disccussion for what was it? 24 hours? Then you better ask their permission before posting, because it's not right to take someone's story, tear it apart, and then ask them to not say anything about it until your time limit ran out.

It's one thing if the members of the community offered their own stories with the knowledge of the rules but to take someone else's work who isn't even in the community...it feels wrong. And here's the catch, most authors would love to have their work discussed if you asked them. But when you don't ask them it opens a whole new bag of worms and I don't think it's good for fostering a sense of community and safety when posting stories.

Sure all fan fic writers post their works to a public forum where people can discuss them privately or in their own journals but when you set up a community and that specifically says the members can't nominate their own work for discussion but instead have to grab some other person's story, and the authors permission matters not at all, and then the author isn't allowed to voice his/her opinion. I just don't see how the community can last.

I'll never feel comfortable voicing my opinion about a story with this kind of set up. It's one thing if the person offers their story up to the community for critical discussion. I know that person expects the good and the bad that comes with them offering their story.

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

I'm deducing from this that you've never been on a discussion community. This comm isn't doing a new or revolutionary thing; discussion groups have probably existed for as long as fanfic has, because people have wanted to discuss stories for as long as they've been reading them. Fostering a sense of "safety and community" for writers is not our aim, nor is it the aim of any discussion group. There is definitely community in fandom, and there is a portion of the community that wants to discuss stories. There is no "safety" in posting stories to the internet. Work shared publicly with a desire to gain readers and receive feedback will be discussed--in public, in private, anywhere--if it's interesting enough to generate discussion. For a writer to expect anything else is hypocritical and self-serving, IMO.

This is a discussion list for readers, a place to discuss with each other our feelings about the stories we've read. This discussion, as I said, happens everywhere, whether you've seen it before or not. And it is discussion, not passing judgment, not analytical analysis, just people who've read stories, who think and feel things about the stories they've read and who want to talk about that. That's all. None of it is meant for the benefit of the writer. Nothing said here is meant to teach the writer anything or help her with her writing. This is not a place to present constructive crit or offer unsolicited beta; this is a place for people to talk to each other about stories. What the writer does or doesn't get out of it isn't the point. Will knowing that anyone didn't like something about their stories hurt a writer's feelings? Possibly. If they don't understand that no one has ever written a story that everyone loves, it may come as a shock to them that anyone has anything but praise for their work. This is in part due to the encouragement of squee developing into expectation and the suppressing of honest reaction, I believe. Everyone who writes, if she writes well enough to generate interest in her work, has received critical feedback at some point. It's part of the package. Grown-ups suck it up and move on. We do it every day in every other aspect of our lives.

I have never turned to a co-worker and said, "I really like what you're wearing today, and I'm curious what Mary and Sue think about it--would you mind if I discussed your outfit with them?" That's what I feel asking writers for permission to talk about their work would be. I will discuss anything on earth I want to discuss, and I will not ask anyone's permission to do so, and that includes stories that have been publicly posted for reader reaction. Writers post stories wanting reaction, but some want to dictate what that reaction is, or at least how it's expressed. I don't believe writers have that right. If they want to control reaction to their stories, they should post them privately, to lists inhabited only by their friends, where they can be assured of the petting they crave. Out in the real world, not everyone will like everything you do. And fandom is part of the real world, peopled with real people. Real world rules apply.

I won't post about a story on this comm that carries the request that no one talk about it. I also won't read her again, or send her feedback. If anyone on this comm wants to ask permission before they post about a story, they're free to do so, but I'm not going to require it, nor am I going to refuse to allow any publicly posted story to discussed. I understand that you don't agree with that, but it isn't changing, and it isn't open to discussion.

The reason, people are asked not to submit their stories for discussion is because this is not a beta group, and I don't want it used that way. The stories discussed here should be stories that members have read and have thoughts about that they want to share. Members shouldn't be expected to give concrit on demand for stories they may or may not be interested in reading. That's not the purpose of the comm.

[cofax7]

You know there is a third option, here: you could notify the writers that the discussion is about to take place or is taking place. Or the poster could, not you the moderator necessarily.

I say this because I think it would probably be easier, as a writer, to watch a discussion forming, and have the choice to read or not read, than to come across it afterwards, or to be completely unprepared for it.

This is not giving the author any kind of veto power, just letting them know it's coming. I'd see it as a courtesy, giving me some choice as to how I would respond.

There was some fairly blunt public criticism of vids in the Vid Review panel at VVC this weekend; but that comes out of a community that historically has participated in that sort of dissection. And everyone who submits a vid to Premieres knows it's going to happen, and has time to prepare themselves. While everyone who puts a story up on the internet hopes people will talk about it, it's not the same as knowing your work will be subjected to an intense, and public, scrutiny. While some of us may want this to be common, and accepted, it's not the reality for much of fandom, and so many people are unprepared for the experience and their own response.

Additionally, I must say that many of the commenters are unprepared to participate in such a forum appropriately. Fandom isn't the same as English class, and I do think we err by trying to make it so. It's more, and it's less, and it's different. Dickens is dead, but I'm not, and I'm only one or two LJ clicks away from whoever starts the thread critiquing my Teyla characterization.

Additionally, the number of participants in any given conversation on LJ is nearly infinite; this is less of an issue on a mailing list (or a locked post), and I've seen people engage in "pile-on" behavior on LJ that wouldn't happen on a list because the list (or filter) has a finite number of members, and once they've had their say, the discussion moves on. On the other hand, I have no way to fix that, so.

Just a few thoughts, none of which are intended to question your ownership of the community or your right to make these decisions; I'm mostly thinking out loud about how to make such a discussion work without hurting too many feelings.

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

I know, and I'm not offended, believe me. And I've heard about the Vividcon vid crit--I didn't know that went on there, though I'm not surprised that it does.

I think something I haven't made clear, that I tried to in the most recent post, is that if people WANT to ask permission or inform writers of reviews, they can. I don't forbid that, I just don't care if people do or don't. I'm not going to demand it, and I certainly don't want to have to enforce it. Can you imagine the blow-up if I did demand it, and someone claimed to have followed the rules, but didn't? I don't want to be responsible for that. If people want to check with authors, they can. It's okay with me.

[amalthia]

I think a lot of people won't want to participate in a discussion over a story if they aren't sure the author is aware and okay with it. I know I don't feel comfortable doing so. Yes no story is safe and yes you can discuss it until the day is gone without the author's permission. But it doesn't foster a sense of community or respect and basically it's not right. Just because you can do it doesn't mean you should. I haven't been on LJ discussion list no.

I've been running an archive for the last eight years and I talk to a lot of writers and readers. I think the reason my archive is still a sucess is because I respect the author's authority over their fiction. When someone asks me to remove their story, I do so right away. If they say don't post their story, I don't. I might ask again a year or two later to see if they changed their mind...but I respect their decision and I think it makes people feel more comfortable posting their stories. I know a lot of people pull down their fiction or vids when people abuse their stories or vids...

I just think to keep this community going and thriving you are going to need people willing to discuss the stories. I'm getting the sense that most people who commented on Hindsight didn't know the author had no clue her story was up for discussion or hadn't really given any thought to the author. but once they realized that her feelings were kind of hurt they felt guilty and I have a feeling a few of them aren't going to be as willing to share their thoughts on the next story.

I know this wasn't your intention. The discussion community sounds like a great idea and I love the idea of getting the chance to talk about my favorite stories too. I just want to do it wtih the sense that no one is getting their feelings hurt or feels blindsided. People offering their own stories up for discussion does not necessarily mean it'll turn into a beta reading list.

People can discuss the pros and cons of story without going into beta reading mode. Besides once it's posted...I figured it's a bit late to go back and beta read. You can make a rule saying only stories that have already been beta read and posted on the net can be offered up for discussion.

As for the permission issue, I almost lost the Angst Archive eight years ago because I started archiving stories without getting the author's permissions first. I had to take it down completely and start writing to people for their permission. Some people didn't care or realize I had archived their fics but others were not happy about it and let me know. It all worked out in the end but I'm not running a community that depends on people to interact in the community.
You can run it how you like but just letting you know if you respect the authors wishes people respect you for that and I think the community will thrive in that atmosphere.

It's obvious people want to discuss they just don't want to hurt anyone's feelings/or step on people's toes.

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

We're not going to agree on whether it's "right" or not to review stories without the author's permission; I maintain that it is, and why, in my most recent post. We're not going to agree on that, obviously. I also don't agree that archiving stories without permission is similar to talking about stories without permission--one infringes on an author's right to decide where her property is housed (a sort of stealing if done without permission, IMO) and the other is about people excercising their rights of free speech about anything that's been presented for public consumption. I don't think they're similar.

Not everyone has a problem with having their stories discussed; some love it and wish someone would do it for their stories, while others aren't thrilled by it but knows it comes with the territory and are grown-up about it. Those who get bent out of shape about it may not be doing the wise thing in putting their stories out there for public consumption. People have different limitations.

As I told Suela, and spoke of in my most recent post, I don't have any problem with anyone asking permission first or informing writers of a review if that's what they want to do. No one's stopping them. I'm not going to demand it because I don't think I should and because I don't want to have to enforce it, but if doing so would make people more comfortable, they certainly can. I'm just not interested in making it a rule.