Hindsight, by Rageprufrock
Aug. 16th, 2005 06:08 pm![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
the-moonmoth.livejournal.com posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
the_comfy_chairI think this community is a terrific idea, but I haven't seen anything come out of it so far so I thought I'd give it a go. Please bear in mind that I haven't written this kind of analysis in many years, and I was never much good at it then. So, on that confident note...
Link: Hindsight, by Rageprufrock
Summary: discussion of the characterisations in the above story
The story is an AU, in which John never joined the Air Force, becoming instead an FBI agent. Rodney's history up to the point where the story begins seems unchanged. Then one day in Colorado, Rodney discovers a bomb in his car, and John is subsequently called to the scene. That's how they meet, and the story goes from there.
The thing about AU's that has always attracted my interest is the characterisations. They really need to be spot-on if the characters are to be removed from the familiarity of their usual surroundings. On the first read, my opinion was that Pru had wholeheartedly succeeded in this. On the second read, I tried to be a bit more critical.
John's character was quite different to the John we see in canon in several ways. He seemed more open, less self-contained, and while he does work long hours and live alone, you get the sense that it's less of a choice on his part -- not something he seeks out, but something that just is, because of the demands his job puts on him. Contrast this with the canon John, who liked the solitude of Antarctica, and had to think long and hard before giving that up.
Perhaps because of this unusual openness to his character, or perhaps because the story is from his POV and we thus get a peak into his head, he also seems to possess a vulnerability that we just don't see, or haven't yet seen, from canon John. This is most obvious in the scene with Francesca (a kidnapped girl he's been searching for but finds too late) and his subsequent reaction to her death, but also in his relationship with Rodney. Despite telling himself that he isn't gay, that he isn't really interested in Rodney and is just using him, he shows a remarkable passiveness in allowing Rodney to muscle him around, take care of him, and in the end almost falls into the relationship without meaning to. This highlights his loneliness, his need for human contact and affection, and leads me to see him as a younger, less hardened version of canon John (I even began to picture him as Joe Flanigan's part in 'Family Portrait').
In fact, this makes sense in the context of this universe. John dearly wanted to join the Air Force and become a pilot, but was disqualified at birth by a medical condition. Despite the obvious satisfaction he takes in his job, there's always the sense of melancholy that he couldn't follow his dreams:
He smoothes a hand over his face and gets distracted when he hears a hum outside the window, and when he turns, he sees a Blackhawk helicopter crawling across the sky, and he cannot, cannot look away.
He grew up on military bases but has had no military training. He deals with rapes and kidnappings and sometimes-gruesome murders, but he's never been to war. Obviously some innate compulsion to save lives remains intact, but he's gone through his career without the desperate trauma of full-scale battle. He does have to deal with some horrific things, but at the end of the day he can return to his nice house in quiet suburbia and work through it all at his own pace. There's no indication that he's ever lost people he's close to in his line of work.
Rodney, however, has led his life exactly the way we've seen it in canon, right up until that fateful morning with the bomb. Presumably he's not long returned from Siberia, and is now working in Cheyenne Mountain on the preliminaries for the Atlantis expedition. So his character should be akin to the Rodney McKay we first met in SG-1, previous to his posting to Antarctica. It more or less is -- snarky, obnoxious, holier-than-thou. However, I found myself pausing to think more than a couple of times.
The first thing that struck me was the use of the word 'yell'. Rodney 'yells' a lot in this story. Admittedly, I haven't seen his SG-1 episodes in a while, but whilst he was smug and arrogant and annoying, I don't remember him being particularly belligerent or neurotic. He was quite self-contained, expressing his panic in a very reasonable way, embracing the sense of inevitable doom-and-gloom with surprisingly little fuss. (My memory, of course, could be faulty -- please do correct me if I'm wrong about this). It was only later, on Atlantis where it was his and his team's lives on the line that he really began to show the neuroticism, raise his voice, gesticulate wildly. Arguably, this is the first time that he ever really understood the responsibility he held -- what it would mean for someone to die because he couldn't find the right solution. Contrast this with his dismissive attitude to Teal'c's situation in his very first appearance in the 'gateverse, and you can really see the character growth that he's undergone.
However, he hasn't undergone it yet. But you wouldn't know it from this story. This is very much a post-Atlantis Rodney in a pre-Atlantis setting. Bit of an anachronism, but I actually don't mind it too much. It works well enough in the early scenes, setting up a good dynamic between Rodney and John, and beyond that there's enough subtlety and skill in the writing that I can believe their relationship is having a significant impact on his behaviour.
That said, the particular characterisations for both Rodney and John fit very well together, and whilst it's never explained explicitly, you can really see what it is about each of them that leads them to need the other so much. Despite the nitpicks and a couple of inconsistencies in some of the details, it's that that makes this story such a good read, and one that holds up well to re-reading.
Link: Hindsight, by Rageprufrock
Summary: discussion of the characterisations in the above story
The story is an AU, in which John never joined the Air Force, becoming instead an FBI agent. Rodney's history up to the point where the story begins seems unchanged. Then one day in Colorado, Rodney discovers a bomb in his car, and John is subsequently called to the scene. That's how they meet, and the story goes from there.
The thing about AU's that has always attracted my interest is the characterisations. They really need to be spot-on if the characters are to be removed from the familiarity of their usual surroundings. On the first read, my opinion was that Pru had wholeheartedly succeeded in this. On the second read, I tried to be a bit more critical.
John's character was quite different to the John we see in canon in several ways. He seemed more open, less self-contained, and while he does work long hours and live alone, you get the sense that it's less of a choice on his part -- not something he seeks out, but something that just is, because of the demands his job puts on him. Contrast this with the canon John, who liked the solitude of Antarctica, and had to think long and hard before giving that up.
Perhaps because of this unusual openness to his character, or perhaps because the story is from his POV and we thus get a peak into his head, he also seems to possess a vulnerability that we just don't see, or haven't yet seen, from canon John. This is most obvious in the scene with Francesca (a kidnapped girl he's been searching for but finds too late) and his subsequent reaction to her death, but also in his relationship with Rodney. Despite telling himself that he isn't gay, that he isn't really interested in Rodney and is just using him, he shows a remarkable passiveness in allowing Rodney to muscle him around, take care of him, and in the end almost falls into the relationship without meaning to. This highlights his loneliness, his need for human contact and affection, and leads me to see him as a younger, less hardened version of canon John (I even began to picture him as Joe Flanigan's part in 'Family Portrait').
In fact, this makes sense in the context of this universe. John dearly wanted to join the Air Force and become a pilot, but was disqualified at birth by a medical condition. Despite the obvious satisfaction he takes in his job, there's always the sense of melancholy that he couldn't follow his dreams:
He smoothes a hand over his face and gets distracted when he hears a hum outside the window, and when he turns, he sees a Blackhawk helicopter crawling across the sky, and he cannot, cannot look away.
He grew up on military bases but has had no military training. He deals with rapes and kidnappings and sometimes-gruesome murders, but he's never been to war. Obviously some innate compulsion to save lives remains intact, but he's gone through his career without the desperate trauma of full-scale battle. He does have to deal with some horrific things, but at the end of the day he can return to his nice house in quiet suburbia and work through it all at his own pace. There's no indication that he's ever lost people he's close to in his line of work.
Rodney, however, has led his life exactly the way we've seen it in canon, right up until that fateful morning with the bomb. Presumably he's not long returned from Siberia, and is now working in Cheyenne Mountain on the preliminaries for the Atlantis expedition. So his character should be akin to the Rodney McKay we first met in SG-1, previous to his posting to Antarctica. It more or less is -- snarky, obnoxious, holier-than-thou. However, I found myself pausing to think more than a couple of times.
The first thing that struck me was the use of the word 'yell'. Rodney 'yells' a lot in this story. Admittedly, I haven't seen his SG-1 episodes in a while, but whilst he was smug and arrogant and annoying, I don't remember him being particularly belligerent or neurotic. He was quite self-contained, expressing his panic in a very reasonable way, embracing the sense of inevitable doom-and-gloom with surprisingly little fuss. (My memory, of course, could be faulty -- please do correct me if I'm wrong about this). It was only later, on Atlantis where it was his and his team's lives on the line that he really began to show the neuroticism, raise his voice, gesticulate wildly. Arguably, this is the first time that he ever really understood the responsibility he held -- what it would mean for someone to die because he couldn't find the right solution. Contrast this with his dismissive attitude to Teal'c's situation in his very first appearance in the 'gateverse, and you can really see the character growth that he's undergone.
However, he hasn't undergone it yet. But you wouldn't know it from this story. This is very much a post-Atlantis Rodney in a pre-Atlantis setting. Bit of an anachronism, but I actually don't mind it too much. It works well enough in the early scenes, setting up a good dynamic between Rodney and John, and beyond that there's enough subtlety and skill in the writing that I can believe their relationship is having a significant impact on his behaviour.
That said, the particular characterisations for both Rodney and John fit very well together, and whilst it's never explained explicitly, you can really see what it is about each of them that leads them to need the other so much. Despite the nitpicks and a couple of inconsistencies in some of the details, it's that that makes this story such a good read, and one that holds up well to re-reading.
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no subject
Date: 2005-08-16 06:28 pm (UTC)I particularly like what you say about John not having experienced the trauma of battle situations or fubared rescue missions, which means AU John is a little more open, more open to emotion and to possibilities. This John never received a black mark for disobeying orders. I'll try to post a few more thoughts when I get home from work. Thanks for kicking this off!
no subject
Date: 2005-08-16 07:19 pm (UTC)Lol, yes, I figured this was true of a lot of fen.
I'll try to post a few more thoughts when I get home from work. Thanks for kicking this off!
You're welcome :) I look forward to your comments.
part I
Date: 2005-08-16 07:37 pm (UTC)It's interesting: I definitely agree with your first comment - that an AU works if the characters are true to themselves, so that no matter what the background, the people in the foreground will need to be recognisably the John Sheppard and Rodney McKay of Stargate: Atlantis.
And I absolutely didn't think this story managed that at all.
For me, the Sheppard of Hindsight is less dissimilar to the Sheppard of Atlantis than the two Rodneys. But in part, that's because both Sheppards are cyphers. So the lazy, superficial all-purpose charm made sense, but I didn't understand why Sheppard would have chosen this career - one that forces him both to see the worst of humankind, to empathise with it, and to be left largely impotent much of the time, to right society's wrongs. He also seemed extremely passive about Rodney's encroachment into his life. The Sheppard of the show seems very able to set his own boudaries, keep people at arms-length - in short, be less of a girl, frankly.
I didn't recognise this Rodney at all. Worse, it seemed to me that this was an absolute distillation of a certain fanon cliche version of McKay. The McKay of Hindsight never, ever stops loudly and pathetically complaining, or whining, or bragging, or bitching the world out. He pretty much hates or despises everyone, and they hate and despise him back with equal ferocity.
I couldn't understand why a man so consumed with anger and contempt would try and force his way into a relationship with a total stranger - and worse, why Sheppard would let himself be played into that relationship, especially when the story sets out with him ostensibly heterosexual. This McKay was something of an obsessive bunny-boiler: I absolutely can't think of anything from the show that supports the idea of McKay calling Sheppard up umpteen times a day, inviting himself into someone else's life, trying to comandeer them. He's way more self-contained than that, by necessity.
Part II
Date: 2005-08-16 07:38 pm (UTC)Making McKay so one-dimensional and hostile completely belies the draw of the Atlantis McKay, who is simply a more rounded, less aggressive, less predictable creation. The McKay of Atlantis - hell, even the McKay of SG-1 - doesn't moan about everything, or bang on incessantly about his 'fake' medical conditions. Yes, he does these things *sometimes* - but he also deprecates himself, works co-operatively, banters, is at times awed and quiet and efficient and aware of the world around him and the people within it, cares about those people enough to offer his own life to save them, repeatedly. I didn't get any sense that the Hindsight McKay would be capable of any such grace. And he seems utterly oblivious to the massive offensiveness he generates or the contempt it earns him. The Atlantis McKay understands that he's socially inept much of the time, but just can't do what it would take (Allina, or Katie Brown) to remedy that.
In making McKay nothing but an arrogant, needy, pushy, whingeing asshole, Hindsight destroyed any sense for me of understanding why Sheppard or anyone else would want to be within a thousand miles of this man. I didn't even get a sense of any genuine sexual chemistry - most of the physical descriptions seem to be fixated on McKay's thick heavy hands and scowling mouth, contrasted with his verbal comments on John's exceptional comeliness.
I didn't buy this as an Atlantis AU in the slightest. I found it mean-spirited - McKay is mockable for the most part, and since the story is told from Sheppard's POV, we're seeing Sheppard enter (reluctantly) into a relationship with someone he seems to share the world's contempt for. For me, one of the defining virtues of SGA is the extent to which there is a genuine and understandable sense both of friendship and bonding, and the ways in which no man can be judged by one action alone.
I know I'm expressing this rather forcefully - my apologies! I hope this doesn't come across as deliberately aggressive. I literally finished reading the story a few minutes ago, and it did rattle me. I feel gloomy that this is such a widely-recommended story, and that people new to Atlantis will read it and then take its interpretation of these characters as the template for the canon of the show itself.
part 1
Date: 2005-08-16 07:52 pm (UTC)I think that for me, I don't mind that the author starts with a season one Rodney. I think that that character is more familiar to fandom-at-large, and is a completely acceptable place to start. I didn't find his character or actions out of scope based on 'Rising' as the starting point; I was pretty much fine with all that.
I agree with you that this John is fanon John, primarily due to his passivity in their relationship. But it's within my three-degrees of canon for what I can accept as a version of John, and as it's an AU and she has a really good explanation for the changes in John's character (he's diabetic), I was quite happy to roll with it.
For me, the main hiccup came at the end. I loved the set up, the way the characters interacted, and the way the universe she created diverged from the canon universe; my problem is that when I read a story as a WIP, part of the fun is the whole 'what happens next' game. For me, I saw markers that the story would go longer -- Rodney went to Antarctica, and we know as fans of the show, that there is an Antarctica expedition, then the decision to go to Pegasus, then the trip back to home for everyone to say their goodbyes.
I wanted to see that goodbye.
Instead, the leaving for Antarctica and the leaving for Pegasus were joined into one thing with one goodbye; and that's the point, to me, of where this story should have ended. Unhappily, yes, but hey, it was true to the characters and the setting and so it would have worked for me. Because really, by that point, we are done with John's story.
part 2
Date: 2005-08-16 07:52 pm (UTC)The other thing I wanted was that I wanted to see *how* John not being on the expedition changed things. I didn't buy that Atlantis wouldn't light up for anyone else, because I didn't get a chance to see it. They had Beckett and others on their team, people with the gene; why wouldn't they have become the focus for activating Atlantis.
And gene therapy? That still would happen. I don't see how not having John there would have changed that. That was the way I felt about a lot of stuff that was glossed over in that last section: there still would have been a rising, Sumner would still have gone through the gate, and the wraith would still have awakened. And I don't know how Rodney gets home from that.
So that's pretty much my quibbles. I loved the romance and relationship, but I had issues with the extrapolation of what would have happened if John wasn't on the team. Small things, I know.
a tiny comment on a tiny part of this comment
Date: 2005-08-16 08:18 pm (UTC)I actually don't think that newbies start with AUs, much, because newbies need and usually want a better grounding in the canon world. But I find the comment about interpretation of the characters interesting, because I am a newbie myself, and I began with fic (not this one) and then went on to canon. The fic I started with was from rec lists and author recs, and included a large dose of Karen McFadyyon and Chelle - authors who tend to write (IMHO) relatively soft and emotional versions of the characters. When I saw the show (season 1) I was, "wow, Rodney's an asshole! I didn't realize that!" because these stories, made him into a much kinder, gentler Rodney than what I saw on the show. But his behavior in e.g. Childhood's End - "they don't need the ZPM and we do, so I'm going to take it" - I mean, he's a real jerk, and it surprised me, and it made me really pay attention to canon.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that each author represents her own version of the characters, and although we may all say our versions are closer to canon than the others, it is all opinion, and none of it is truly canon except the show. But all of us are going to be affected by what we read, whether it is Pru's arrogant and needy Rodney or Karen's sweet and squishy Rodney or Shalott's oblivious and pushy Rodney. And unless something specifically pings us as, "hey, that doesn't match my Rodney," they all get rolled into canon!Rodney from the show in our heads, I think.
Anyway, I am not disputing your disagreement with the characterization (well, I am, a little, in that I think canon!Rodney is as obnoxious as painted here, although he is capable of making the big sacrifices which this story doesn't show but canon does) - but I think that there is room in the big tent of fanfiction for a wide variety of characterization.
Re: a tiny comment on a tiny part of this comment
Date: 2005-08-16 08:52 pm (UTC)For me, an AU puts a premium on ensuring that the *whole* character is encapsulated, because the surrounding context of canon - the environment, the secondary characters and the canon backstory - are going to be partly or wholly absent.
To take your example of Childhood's End, it's possible to watch that ep and see Rodney in all his arrogant, asshole glory. He sneers at Ford's compass, then realises it has a beneficial value and snatches it away. He takes the ZPM without a thought for the consequences. He's mean to the rugrats.
Then again, to cite those examples without either the context of their occurrence, or the other McKay actions in that episode, will not give you a whole take on Rodney, but only the selective one where he's repellent and off-putting. His grabbing the compass derives from the imperative he's under to find a solution to the problem of a crashed Jumper and no means or repairing it - he's goal-oriented. And it's worth noting that Ford's reaction to that is an amused sarcasm, rather than dislike or contempt. McKay takes the ZPM back to Atlantis because he's fixated on ensuring that Atlantis is safe above everything else (and it's worth bearing in mind that this is exactly the same idea that occurred to Ford in Letters From Pegasus). And when Elizabeth orders him to take it back, he has sufficient ethical awareness to be embarrassed by her reprimand, and not to argue with her.
Yes, he has no patience with the kids, but later he acts without hesitation to protect and hide them from the Wraith probe, and to carry on working on the ZPM rather than hide himself away.
I'm not seeking to sanctify McKay - and authors like Chelle and Karen McFadyyon, IMO, do pay attention to illustrating that side of McKay which is miserable or arrogant or sarcastic. I simply think there's a logic and a canon fault in creating characterisations of McKay which never seem able to progress beyond his every utterance being a sneer or a whine or an insult. Without incorporating some recognition of his capacity to have some discernable appeal to the people around him - not just Sheppard, or, worse, just Sheppard's cock - without that, any story will leave me baffled as to why any sane person would want to spend time with such a relentlessly unpleasant moron. As a reader, I know I don't want to.
Re: part 2
Date: 2005-08-16 08:57 pm (UTC)I like your idea about a change to Rodney's perspective; I didn't think Rodney was quite right (he felt turned up a few notches), and it would have been interesting to see him from inside.
Re: a tiny comment on a tiny part of this comment
Date: 2005-08-16 09:24 pm (UTC)All that is very true--there is room in fandom for everyone's interpretation, and there are niches for all kinds of preferences. Here, in this comm, those preferences are open to being stated and argued. We don't "agree to disagree" here, we just disagree. *g* That many interpretations exist and are enjoyed is a given; there's no need to point that out. I don't want to see "you have to realize that everyone's interpretation is valid" responses to all characterization posts, so I'm going to interject whenever I see them. Not picking on you, here, just hoping to make a point early that everyone who states a preference, however strongly, needn't add a caveat that what doesn't work for them may work for others. We know that.
And I'm very interested to hear that your coming into the fandom through the stories has influenced your reaction to what you saw in the eps, that the Rodney those fic writers presented was as off the mark, for you, as the Rodneys who are all bitchy snark and whining are to other readers. You know, I see as much division and difference in various readings and portrayals of John, but the reactions to Rodney are often more emotional and the discussions more intense. Interesting.
Re: part 2
Date: 2005-08-16 09:48 pm (UTC)But before then, there were people going left. And the lights came on for them, too. And I'm say lights, and air. 'cuz that's the thing I was really worried about, what with Atlantis being underwater and all, in that in 10K years, and doors not opening and heat not on and air circulation not occurring, would they be able to survive that long in just the gate room? Or would they all die because they couldn't breathe or developed hypothermia or something? I don't think they could last 10 months there like that; the system has to have come alive for someone for them to survive.
Which mean that while John does have the strongest gene, he's not really all that important to the expedition -- which is something I think works with what we know about him. it's fannon that he's the only person that Atlantis interacts with; other people, not just beckett, can do it too.
Sidebar, for the characterization thing - if he played football, he was probably 2nd string. John's always been a replacable guy.
And my tiny comment on a tiny part of this comment
Date: 2005-08-16 09:52 pm (UTC)And that's where I go *blink*. I've seen that remark before, and I have a hard time understanding where people get that. Yes, Rodney is assholish at times. He's obnoxious and brash, and very often in your face...but an asshole? I don't get that at all. This is my problem with this story as well--though I enjoyed the story, Rodney isn't this frenetic and forceful when it comes to personal relations. We see on the show, from the very first episode, that he has quiet moments, small moments of caring and concern.
Some examples from Rising: As he explains to Jack how the ZPM works--he's very excited, but not at all abrasive or rude. He doesn't take exception to Jack's almost rude dismissal. Though he looks slightly worried when Elizabeth talks about the possible danger of the trip to Atlantis, he doesn't bemoan or contradict.
When everyone rushes in because John's activated the chair, he very calmly tells John what to do.
I really want to go on, but I'm practically quoting everything from this ep. He's slightly obnoxious when people don't catch on in a dangerous situation, but for example, when John calls him on the solution to finding the correct gate address, he immediately shuts up and gets to work. He's worried that Elizabeth is worried.
And it's not just the characterization from the first episode. Look at him smiling at the mice in Hide and Seek. Watch his friendly little wave to Carson in Poisoning the Well. There's his joy at a job well done, rounding up his scientists at the beginning of Hot Zone. His utter delight in solving a puzzle with in Brotherhood. The nice, quiet discussion between him and John as they sit, pondering the size of the city in Before I Sleep. Then there's his attempts to comfort Gaul, his worry over John, and the utter devestation on his face after Gaul's suicide in The Defiant One.
Really, the full-time verbal barage only occurs when he's stressed, and we see that at the end of the season, when the Wraith are coming. But Rodney's so much more than an asshole who does nothing but spew witty diatribes non-stop. That's what irritates me about fanon Rodney. Maybe some writers paint him too softly, but he's more than a one-note character. Give him a moment to breathe, please, that isn't a big emotional breakdown.
Re: And my tiny comment etc. etc.
Date: 2005-08-16 09:58 pm (UTC)Oh, I agree! I just am saying that the arrogance and small-scale thoughtlessness that he sometimes displays on the show took me by surprise, because the stories I had read to that point didn't show that aspect of him.
Re: a tiny comment on a tiny part of this comment
Date: 2005-08-16 09:59 pm (UTC)And of course the same is true for John - I think the divisions are clearer-cut with Rodney, which is why I chose him as an example, but yeah, there are a lot of differences in characterization there as well.
And although I understand exactly where you're coming from with regards to the community (I started a similar one for HP fic), I always try to err on the side of inclusivity and politeness, 'cause, I don't want to piss anyone off even accidentally. Critical discussion of fic can be an explosive issue.
and further
Date: 2005-08-16 10:00 pm (UTC)Re: a tiny comment on a tiny part of this comment
Date: 2005-08-16 10:15 pm (UTC)It can be, which is why I intend to try to police as carefully as possible. I'm all for disagreeing with others' points, with supporting examples, but not for protesting certain points or assertions being made, or how they're made. To say, "you need to keep in mind that all views are valid", in a general way, isn't okay; it is okay to say "newbies will read a lot of stories with a lot of different characterizations and be influenced by all of them, so this one probably won't make that much difference." The more specific the comment, the less potential for misunderstanding intent, and so less possibility for pissing anyone off.
no subject
Date: 2005-08-16 10:53 pm (UTC)Right up front, I have to say that there were a couple of lines in this story that were laugh-out-loud funny, to me, in the good way. And a couple of things I found really insightful, about character. McKay's string theory model, the gift given in an attempt to get Sheppard to put out, was my favorite thing about the story. *g*
However...the characterizations in this story struck me as being over to the extreme edges of what's seen in canon for both Sheppard and McKay. I can see the Sheppard of canon in this story, if I squint -- laconic, laid back, easy-going. The Sheppard of Hindsight is incredibly passive, which is rather odd given his profession, and that turned me off. Even so, it's easier for me to buy an even more laid-back Sheppard than it is to see the extreme version of McKay.
When I watch the SG-1 ep in which McKay was first introduced, I see a one-dimensional obnoxious jerk who trampled every last nerve of everyone he interacted with. His meta-purpose there was to be fingernails on the chalkboard. But by the second episode in which he appeared, he had already started to take on three dimensions, including some vulnerability and a sense of his own limitations where science was concerned. This is why I don't quite buy Hindsight's strident, obnoxious, truly annoying McKay as being 'pre-Atlantis'. He's at the far edge of who McKay is -- he's a big ol' bundle of irritating.
Which brings me to what rivier said:
In making McKay nothing but an arrogant, needy, pushy, whingeing asshole, Hindsight destroyed any sense for me of understanding why Sheppard or anyone else would want to be within a thousand miles of this man.
This, more or less, is my primary problem with the story. I'm not able to see any defined connection between the two characters that explains why they even like each other. Why would someone like Sheppard, as portrayed in this story, be attracted to someone like this McKay? Yikes. More than that, I try to follow the whole McKay-as-pursuer thing here, and I just can't do it; this McKay hasn't the social skills to make it plausible.
I'm not fond of the softer, more wide-eyed, martyriffic McKay in SGA stories, either, but there is a balance that works for me somewhere in the middle. This story doesn't reach that balance, for me.
Re: part 2
Date: 2005-08-16 11:30 pm (UTC)I think the ten months is the combined time Rodney spent in Antarctica plus the trip to Atlantis. I pretty much assumed they only spent a few days or maybe a couple of weeks in Atlantis. There would have been no reason to stay longer, once they determined that they couldn't get anything to work.
Re: And my tiny comment etc. etc.
Date: 2005-08-16 11:42 pm (UTC)Re: part 2
Date: 2005-08-16 11:46 pm (UTC)Re: and further
Date: 2005-08-16 11:50 pm (UTC)Anyway, enough of me.
Re: part I
Date: 2005-08-17 12:17 am (UTC)No, I agree this is something that might have been addressed better, but I can still see the appeal, for him -- doing what he can to help people, using his brain, but also enough action to keep that part of him satisfied. I don't see that he's impotent a lot of the time, or that he would see it that way -- of course, some cases will go badly, but some will go well, and I can imagine the rush of figuring it out, saving a life.
The Sheppard of the show seems very able to set his own boudaries, keep people at arms-length - in short, be less of a girl, frankly
Gender stereotyping aside, I agree with you here as well. However, I think that the Hindsight John, at this point, is very much in need of human contact. He isn't the hardened military man trained to be self-sufficient, and while, yes, he's no sop, he's working on a very difficult, emotionally disturbing case, and that kind of thing will make you reach out to reconnect with humanity wherever you can find it. I'm sure he could have kept Rodney at bay had he truly wanted to, but it's evident with that first dinner that while he might not be looking to spend time with Rodney, per se, he does need to escape his work and his colleagues for a little while. The way he allows himself to be almost pushed into the relationship as time goes on speak to this.
I couldn't understand why a man so consumed with anger and contempt would try and force his way into a relationship with a total stranger - and worse, why Sheppard would let himself be played into that relationship, especially when the story sets out with him ostensibly heterosexual.
See, I read more shades of grey into this. I seem to be alone in this interpretation, and maybe it's just me trying to make it work in my head, but I didn't see Hindsight Rodney as quite the extreme you've described above. I did see depth, nerves, genuine affection, and granted it wasn't there the entire time, tbh I don't think it needed to be. For me, it was enough to paint a picture of a multi-faceted man that might conceivably have piqued Agent Sheppard's interest.
And I don't see that Sheppard was 'played' into the relationship. I thought it was quite clear that despite his initial ambiguity towards it, he did come to really want it. He needed to be wanted, and that's what he got, and eventually he got more and realised that that's what he needed and wanted too. The fact that Rodney's a guy does seem to give him pause, but first he gets over it because he likes/needs/wants the attention, and then he gets over it because he begins to feel. The story paints him as someone with a string of short-term girlfriends -- relationships that are neither going anyway nor have any depth. The relationship he developes with Rodney is new and unique for him. So I'm not too surprised that he didn't freak out over the fact that it was a homosexual relationship.
I absolutely can't think of anything from the show that supports the idea of McKay calling Sheppard up umpteen times a day
My own (seemingly unique) interpretation of this was that it was an exageration on Sheppard's part. As I recall it, he's thinking about that as a memory, and having a laugh about it to himself, so I read this as a bit of joking exageration (like, omg this comment is taking me 100 years to write).
...inviting himself into someone else's life, trying to comandeer them...
Yes, but I don't think he's above persuing his friends if he's worried about them.
Re: Part II
Date: 2005-08-17 12:28 am (UTC)Not at all.
I feel gloomy that this is such a widely-recommended story, and that people new to Atlantis will read it and then take its interpretation of these characters as the template for the canon of the show itself.
As several others have already said, I doubt you've got much to worry about. Any newbie worth their salt is going to be able to make up their own mind on the matter. Also, I don't think contrasting view of the characters are a bad thing. There does seem to be a movement with the newer converts to the fandom away from the softer Rodney those of us who've been around since the beginning are more familiar with seeing in fic, but I actually find it quite refreshing, and I'm glad that people are thinking independently about it. Yes, I think this particular story is a little unbalanced with regards to his character, but I don't think it's any worse than a lot of other widely-recc'd stories, just at the opposite end of the scale.
Re: part 1
Date: 2005-08-17 12:43 am (UTC)Lol! So sorry...
I wanted to see that goodbye.
Rodney admits after his return that if John had asked him not to go to Antarctica, he wouldn't have known what to do. To go through it once, only to do it again, with the same risk that John would ask him to stay... I can understand why there wasn't a second goodbye.
and that's the point, to me, of where this story should have ended.
Ah, no, I have to disagree. This was primarily a light-hearted story of romance and discovery, and to have it end in such a way (and somewhat unresolved imo) wouldn't have been in keeping with the tone of the rest of it. It would have been jarring, and not in the good way.
Because really, by that point, we are done with John's story.
Again I have to disagree. We know that John has the gene, and that Rodney's going to Atlantis, so for that connection to never be made would have left it feeling incredibly unresolved. It might have worked if there was more of a sense of tragedy to the story, but as it stands, I can't see that it would've worked.
Re: part 2
Date: 2005-08-17 12:51 am (UTC)Or maybe it's just that he's a bit wiser.
I, for one, would have liked to have seen how that change came about.
Yes, it is tempting to want that, but this was John's story, not Rodney's. What we got was enough for me, because it wasn't Rodney's change that mattered so much, but John's reaction to it.
there still would have been a rising, Sumner would still have gone through the gate, and the wraith would still have awakened
If the city hadn't powered up, I doubt that the power drain that led to the shields failing would still have occurred. Hence no reason for Sumner to go through the gate, and no Wraith-awakening. I didn't buy the science of how they got back to Earth, though. Surely it would have been easier to just say they powered up the Atlantis gate with a naquadah generator, searched around some worlds for a bit, and eventually found a ZPM with sufficient charge to get them home. That was my only quibble in that regard.