Hindsight, by Rageprufrock

I think this community is a terrific idea, but I haven't seen anything come out of it so far so I thought I'd give it a go. Please bear in mind that I haven't written this kind of analysis in many years, and I was never much good at it then. So, on that confident note...

Link: Hindsight, by Rageprufrock
Summary: discussion of the characterisations in the above story

The story is an AU, in which John never joined the Air Force, becoming instead an FBI agent. Rodney's history up to the point where the story begins seems unchanged. Then one day in Colorado, Rodney discovers a bomb in his car, and John is subsequently called to the scene. That's how they meet, and the story goes from there.

The thing about AU's that has always attracted my interest is the characterisations. They really need to be spot-on if the characters are to be removed from the familiarity of their usual surroundings. On the first read, my opinion was that Pru had wholeheartedly succeeded in this. On the second read, I tried to be a bit more critical.

John's character was quite different to the John we see in canon in several ways. He seemed more open, less self-contained, and while he does work long hours and live alone, you get the sense that it's less of a choice on his part -- not something he seeks out, but something that just is, because of the demands his job puts on him. Contrast this with the canon John, who liked the solitude of Antarctica, and had to think long and hard before giving that up.

Perhaps because of this unusual openness to his character, or perhaps because the story is from his POV and we thus get a peak into his head, he also seems to possess a vulnerability that we just don't see, or haven't yet seen, from canon John. This is most obvious in the scene with Francesca (a kidnapped girl he's been searching for but finds too late) and his subsequent reaction to her death, but also in his relationship with Rodney. Despite telling himself that he isn't gay, that he isn't really interested in Rodney and is just using him, he shows a remarkable passiveness in allowing Rodney to muscle him around, take care of him, and in the end almost falls into the relationship without meaning to. This highlights his loneliness, his need for human contact and affection, and leads me to see him as a younger, less hardened version of canon John (I even began to picture him as Joe Flanigan's part in 'Family Portrait').

In fact, this makes sense in the context of this universe. John dearly wanted to join the Air Force and become a pilot, but was disqualified at birth by a medical condition. Despite the obvious satisfaction he takes in his job, there's always the sense of melancholy that he couldn't follow his dreams:

He smoothes a hand over his face and gets distracted when he hears a hum outside the window, and when he turns, he sees a Blackhawk helicopter crawling across the sky, and he cannot, cannot look away.

He grew up on military bases but has had no military training. He deals with rapes and kidnappings and sometimes-gruesome murders, but he's never been to war. Obviously some innate compulsion to save lives remains intact, but he's gone through his career without the desperate trauma of full-scale battle. He does have to deal with some horrific things, but at the end of the day he can return to his nice house in quiet suburbia and work through it all at his own pace. There's no indication that he's ever lost people he's close to in his line of work.

Rodney, however, has led his life exactly the way we've seen it in canon, right up until that fateful morning with the bomb. Presumably he's not long returned from Siberia, and is now working in Cheyenne Mountain on the preliminaries for the Atlantis expedition. So his character should be akin to the Rodney McKay we first met in SG-1, previous to his posting to Antarctica. It more or less is -- snarky, obnoxious, holier-than-thou. However, I found myself pausing to think more than a couple of times.

The first thing that struck me was the use of the word 'yell'. Rodney 'yells' a lot in this story. Admittedly, I haven't seen his SG-1 episodes in a while, but whilst he was smug and arrogant and annoying, I don't remember him being particularly belligerent or neurotic. He was quite self-contained, expressing his panic in a very reasonable way, embracing the sense of inevitable doom-and-gloom with surprisingly little fuss. (My memory, of course, could be faulty -- please do correct me if I'm wrong about this). It was only later, on Atlantis where it was his and his team's lives on the line that he really began to show the neuroticism, raise his voice, gesticulate wildly. Arguably, this is the first time that he ever really understood the responsibility he held -- what it would mean for someone to die because he couldn't find the right solution. Contrast this with his dismissive attitude to Teal'c's situation in his very first appearance in the 'gateverse, and you can really see the character growth that he's undergone.

However, he hasn't undergone it yet. But you wouldn't know it from this story. This is very much a post-Atlantis Rodney in a pre-Atlantis setting. Bit of an anachronism, but I actually don't mind it too much. It works well enough in the early scenes, setting up a good dynamic between Rodney and John, and beyond that there's enough subtlety and skill in the writing that I can believe their relationship is having a significant impact on his behaviour.

That said, the particular characterisations for both Rodney and John fit very well together, and whilst it's never explained explicitly, you can really see what it is about each of them that leads them to need the other so much. Despite the nitpicks and a couple of inconsistencies in some of the details, it's that that makes this story such a good read, and one that holds up well to re-reading.

[identity profile] destina.livejournal.com 2005-08-17 02:48 am (UTC)(link)
There is an exposition description of them sharing post-coital confidences, but we didn't get to see it. I wanted to see it, to hear their words and see their expressions and reactions, to feel how hard or easy it was for them to share those things.

Because I didn't see those things, I wasn't entirely sure why John would choose Rodney over the woman he had moved in with.


Hmmm. This describes very well the reason I had some trouble understanding why Sheppard wanted to be with McKay -- you articulated this much better than I did. I wasn't able to quite put my finger on it, but this is it -- I just was never able to get the full picture of why Sheppard felt anything for McKay. The expositional aspect may be a part of why I felt there was a missed connection, somewhere.

[identity profile] mmmchelle.livejournal.com 2005-08-17 02:58 am (UTC)(link)
I definitely bought John's attraction to Rodney in the beginning. Bemused, and amused, and a little intriqued. Charmed, even though he wasn't entirely sure why. That all worked wonderfully for me, although I saw in your comment that it didn't work as well for you.

But the deepening of the connection between them was given short-shrift, I felt.

It's very odd to me that there was a story in which McKay felt too one-dimensional and screechy to you and I bought him. To be honest, it makes me giggle.

[identity profile] destina.livejournal.com 2005-08-17 03:05 am (UTC)(link)
*g* It makes me giggle, too. But I have to say, one of the reasons I love good, civil story discussion is because truly, it's often unpredictable. In discussions of this nature, folks often find their assumptions about what others do and don't like, or will and won't enjoy, uprooted for various reasons. This has been one such discussion, which makes it a great deal of fun to read.

I was thinking, too, that this *is* an AU, and I wonder if sometimes I'm harder on AUs than I am on straight old stories, because I come to them hoping to truly see a character I recognize -- when really, that seems an upside-down expectation, from a certain perspective. Hmm. Thinky thoughts.

[identity profile] mmmchelle.livejournal.com 2005-08-17 03:16 am (UTC)(link)
It's odd because I rarely read AUs. Then Danvers came along and ruined me.

I agree with you that in an AU the interesting thing is to keep the canon characters; otherwise it's not an AU it's original fic. I can see why some people felt this story didn't do that. For me, it mostly did. While not the version of John and Rodney that live in my head and discuss the movies I am attempting to watch, they were nevertheless a believable version.

Re: Part II

[identity profile] claire.livejournal.com 2005-08-17 04:43 am (UTC)(link)
I feel gloomy that this is such a widely-recommended story, and that people new to Atlantis will read it and then take its interpretation of these characters as the template for the canon of the show itself.

I don't know of anyone who reads one story when first coming into fandom and then *bam* those are her/his characters forever and ever.

I know you are particularly protective of McKay, riv, and I understand that you love his character, but some of us can see him acting like this, given the above situation. It's not that we don't like McKay or that we like Sheppard better, it's just that there's nothing glaringly not!Rodney here. In fact this Rodney to me is closer to the canon character than your John in Exigencies. But I loved your story, because it was a great take on the "what if" and I recced it to all and sundry.

I think possibly you're a little too invested in your view of McKay and you need to stop thinking that everyone who writes him differently is personally attacking the character and destroying fandom.

[identity profile] engenda.livejournal.com 2005-08-17 04:45 am (UTC)(link)
I always thought that John activated Atlantis but didn't necessarily wake it up. That is, Atlantis was probably set to initiate viability as soon as the gate activated. So air etc would come on, that simply required Gate activation or life signs. However, getting any of the other functions to work would require the gene. So, that's my interpretation of why John was needed.

Re: part I

[identity profile] tafkarfanfic.livejournal.com 2005-08-17 05:01 am (UTC)(link)
didn't see Hindsight Rodney as quite the extreme you've described above. I did see depth, nerves, genuine affection

Me too. He was slightly too strident for my taste, but only slightly.

I also didn't feel like Shep was "played" into the relationship. He seemed to sort of let it happen, but that's different.

And I can imagine McKay calling Shep many times a day. He's dogged, persistent, and obsessive.

[identity profile] palebluebell.livejournal.com 2005-08-17 08:26 am (UTC)(link)
I think you've hit the nail on the head regarding the Rodney character: he was skirting the edges of caricature, but I too felt the underlying compassion of rageprufrock's Rodney, and couldn't help but be endeared by all the Rodney-izations that went on.

If he was simply an ass without redeeming features, then it would have been difficult to care, but I did care about him, as much as John who was the focus of the fic.

Also - SGA seems to be mapping Rodney's development, how he's been changing, slowly becoming more open, vulnerable and caring and less self-absorbed. But this mapping happens after they've reached Pegasus, so the forces that go into making Rodney a different person haven't happened in this story, so it makes sense that he's yet to develop his more humanistic side.

Also, John felt so flattened by circumstance; I'd go so far to say he was depressed. (which by the way, she was able to really make me feel - I too felt flat while reading the John pov and almost felt like crying for the poor man - good writing)

Without the hope of achieving his dream of flying, which is so much a part of who is his, and was the one thing that O'Neil was able to use to persuade him to come to Pegasus in the first place, he seemed lost. That coupled with the job and the particular case he was dealing with makes it easy for me to believe that the only one who could reach him was a Rodney on full volume - with all the whining and complaining and general obliviousness that the Rodney character seems capable off. Anything less (the lady he becomes involved with is an example for me) allowed him to float above the emotions without having to engage, while Rodney demanded that he do just that.

And who could say no to Rodney anyway.

Re: part 2

[identity profile] sinden.livejournal.com 2005-08-17 10:05 am (UTC)(link)
I didn't see Sheppard as being that passive at all. Actually, I saw him being -- inadvertantly -- rather manipulative, because he was leading McKay on knowing full well that what McKay thought was the case actually wasn't. And still the development of the relationship happened at Sheppard's pace, not McKay's. It was a rather twisted case of 'she let him chase her and chase her until she caught him.'

Seeing McKay's POV would have to be a whole other story, and personally, I don't think we need to see how McKay has changed because we do get to see how he hasn't which, for me, was more important.

I guess what it comes down to is that, for me, in non-collaborative WIP world, I rather like being able to imagine some of the things myself instead of having situations happen that I don't see or don't work or me. That can throw me out of the story.

I found that [livejournal.com profile] rageprufrock skated along that line perfectly for me.

Re: a tiny comment on a tiny part of this comment

[identity profile] sinden.livejournal.com 2005-08-17 10:17 am (UTC)(link)
I agree with you, I don't think newbies will gravitate towards the AUs for a while, either. Canon calls more strongly at the start than anything else. Not to mention the gestalt nature of how characterisation forms for us through canon and fic.

So, yes, this is just me waving a hand and saying 'what you said'. :)
ext_2353: amanda tapping, chris judge, end of an era (sga shep)

Re: part 2

[identity profile] scrollgirl.livejournal.com 2005-08-17 10:56 am (UTC)(link)
Hee! We're so sad, it's funny! Now, okay, I am totally willing to believe you since all I have is a burned copy of "Rising" that I watch on my computer, but I don't see any door opening. The first thing I see on the other side is John stepping through the gate, then the camera panning to Ford and him moving off to the side, the lights coming on. But it's dark (obviously!) and maybe I'm missing the door opening?

Of course, having said all that I still can buy John being necessary for the purposes of the fanfic, because I don't think all fanon is created equal and this particular fanon is just so cool ;)

Re: Part II

[identity profile] misspamela.livejournal.com 2005-08-17 12:15 pm (UTC)(link)
Hindsight destroyed any sense for me of understanding why Sheppard or anyone else would want to be within a thousand miles of this man.

That's really interesting. For me, I loved this Rodney. He made me laugh and he cared for John and he was so smart and funny and just -- Rodney! I found him not only in-character, but very likeable.

The John characterization didn't ping as strongly for me, but that didn't interfere with my enjoyment of the story.

[identity profile] thepouncer.livejournal.com 2005-08-17 01:21 pm (UTC)(link)
You made me ponder, after I read this last night, the effect of his mother's death on John. I think that perhaps that scene was intended to show the beginning of his isolation, because such a massive trauma would have lasting repercussions. His mother died right next to him, as he waited while beset by injuries for rescue. I think this is when he started to withdraw from genuine connection, leading to the Agent Sheppard we meet at the start of the story, who has fairly breezy interactions with coworkers. He's found a way to cope (charm) that still keeps people at a distance. Which of course feeds into Rodney's abrasiveness as a mechanism to get behind John's barriers.

I do think that his mother's death could have been touched upon again in a way that made its influence stronger.

[identity profile] palebluebell.livejournal.com 2005-08-17 02:09 pm (UTC)(link)
Mmmmm...like you, I wrote that part of the 'Hindsight' for myself. When it became clear that they hadn't been able to activate Atlantis, and Carson hadn't been mentioned, I decided that in this AU he hadn't been around to discover the gene.

I guess it might have worked better if she's finagled a meeting with the mission's Doctor who was definitely not Carson. But you wonder how that could have been done without feeling contrived.

I mean, if Carson hadn't discovered the gene in this AU, if would be impossible to actually say that he hadn't - you'd end up talking about something that the characters couldn't possibly know.
ext_2353: amanda tapping, chris judge, end of an era (sga squee)

[identity profile] scrollgirl.livejournal.com 2005-08-17 02:32 pm (UTC)(link)
Hee! You pretty much said everything I wanted to say :)

Also, John felt so flattened by circumstance; I'd go so far to say he was depressed. (which by the way, she was able to really make me feel - I too felt flat while reading the John pov and almost felt like crying for the poor man - good writing)

Yes, poor baby. I felt so badly for him. And Francesca! *sniff*
ext_2353: amanda tapping, chris judge, end of an era (sga shep)

[identity profile] scrollgirl.livejournal.com 2005-08-17 02:35 pm (UTC)(link)
He says, "Sure, I'll go refill that for you and remind everybody who won the War of Northern Aggression while I'm out there--happy, Dr. McKay?"

Yes! That line made me laugh out loud and grin like a loon, and I'm not even American!
ext_1788: Photo of Lirael from the Garth Nix book of the same name, with the text 'dzurlady' (Default)

[identity profile] dzurlady.livejournal.com 2005-08-17 03:18 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't have anything much coherant to say, except thank god I am not alone in not having absolute adoration for this fic, and thank you for letting me know that. :)
tinny: Something Else holding up its colorful drawing - "be different" (sga_sheppard contemplate)

Re: Part II

[personal profile] tinny 2005-08-17 03:43 pm (UTC)(link)
Making McKay so one-dimensional and hostile completely belies the draw of the Atlantis McKay

Yes, Pru has a very negative view of McKay. But it's not actually the fault of the story, it's just how she sees him. She posted a separate post about this in her journal, outlining that she has a more negative view on him than most of the fandom - and that she wonders why so many people like/love him.

Characterization is always subjective. IMHO, a lot of people concentrate on the positive things Rodney does because they *like* him. But it is perfectly valid to weigh these sides of him less important and think of him mainly as an arrogant asshole. It's not like he has many chances or need to sacrifice his life in Hindsight, so maybe these ethical parts of his character never surface there.

Another question, of course, is, whether Hindsight!John, who is later obviously in love with Rodney, should concentrate on that part of Rodney in his narrative, or if he shouldn't be more biased - highlighting the good points about Rodney towards the end of the story. And I think this does indeed happen, but I'd have to reread with it specifically in mind.
ext_1637: (rodney opinions by 'chelle)

[identity profile] wickedwords.livejournal.com 2005-08-17 03:55 pm (UTC)(link)
That's pretty much what I was saying. To make all the pieces work for that epilogue, there has to be some fan wank going on -- either the reader has to make up how it all worked together, or someone -- another reader or the author herself -- has to explain externally to the story why it worked that way. My personal preference would have been for the author to have explained it within the universe she created, but as I mentioned before, that would have required a full and complete story just from Rodney's perspective. But nothing requires her to write that; it's just something I would have liked.

[identity profile] mmmchelle.livejournal.com 2005-08-17 04:42 pm (UTC)(link)
I think that perhaps that scene was intended to show the beginning of his isolation,

Exactly, which is why showing John telling Rodney about it would have had such power. If we had seen that, it would have added to the story on multiple levels.

[identity profile] dvslj.livejournal.com 2005-08-17 06:45 pm (UTC)(link)
A bit late to this discussion, but I had to drop my two cents.

Like I was telling Riv, I had some very mixed reactions to this story. There were things that I really loved about it and then there were things that ultimately left me a little confused.

I liked John in this story, though I did find him quite different to canon John, which I guess is fine because if characterization is to be fiddled with, an AU would be the place to do it. Rodney was the one I had a problem with. I just couldn't see what John's attraction to him was and where it came from. I don't know if that was intended as a peek into John not being able to make sense of the attraction himself, or if it was just the way Rodney was characterize, but it jolted me out of the fic a few times.

Because of that, I just wasn't feeling the connection I sometimes get when reading a story, and I took it to mean that, yeah, something was missing and not clicking for me. So, following from that, my problem was that the fic seemed universally loved, which made me wonder about my obviously subjective perceptions of the characters because clearly, I wasn't seeing the same thing as other readers.

Rodney has many facets, some more admirable than others and when I write about Rodney I have a very deep affection for his character. It's more than possible that this affection might cloud my perceptions and therefore affect the way I write/read/percieve him as a whole. I'm pretty sure that out of the four AU's I've written, someone out there probably thinks the characterizations are seriously whacked and for all I know, they might be write (I'd rather they weren't though).

I guess the way I see Rodney was ultimately very different from the one in this story and that kind of took away the enjoyment.

There's no doubt that Hindsight is a well-written, well structured, creative and enviable AU (though I think I would have preferred it without that last paragraph), but there was this one thing that took away from my enjoying it as much as I was at one point. I glimpsed the Rodney I liked a few times, but it wasn't enough.

I do appreciate it though for the fact that it made me question a lot of things about my own writing and fanon in general and I think any fic that challenges your thinking about something has something going for it.
ext_841: (john)

[identity profile] cathexys.livejournal.com 2005-08-17 06:46 pm (UTC)(link)
see, i think your expectations are totally right (see my post and the essay i link)..but yes, that's a tall order to fill...

and i agree about civil discussions...though i have to admit that i'm more with chelle on not quite following john though i could buy both enough to honestly love the fic...but rodney in particular made perfect sense to me. [or maybe it's my old problem of being more concerned with internal than canon bvelievability, b/c the John issue is more of a story logic one, i.e., would any man who's never even considered himself bi act in that particular way, rather than, was it john???]

Re: Part II

[identity profile] carolyn-claire.livejournal.com 2005-08-17 08:11 pm (UTC)(link)
This would actually work better as a private email, honey. It goes from focus on the story to focus on Riv, which isn't what we do, here. Refute her assertions in her post with examples and your own views of the story/characters, but not the way she thinks and why, please.

Page 3 of 4